I spoke with my student Harrison, who was the first person in his cohort to accept a job — 7 weeks into our 12 week program.
Transcript
This transcript is AI-generated.
Introduction and Current Status
Andrew: What's up Harrison?
Harrison: Not much. I'm out here outside Halifax spending some time with family, enjoying my life I guess. It's good.
Andrew: And you recently graduated early from Fractal Bootcamp. Is that right?
Harrison: Yes, first grad in my cohort. I'm now working at SupplyCo. I roughly tripled my income with this job move, which was pretty awesome. It definitely went above my expectations. Pretty excited, pretty good stuff.
Andrew: Can you introduce yourself? I want to know where you're at now in life and in your career, but I'm curious about the whole story. You could start wherever you think makes the most sense - where Fractal Bootcamp fits into your story. It could be with just your most recent job, or it could be college or whatever. But I'm curious to hear the long arc of your career and how it leads up to now.
The Short and Long Version
Harrison: I think the shortest version of that story is the ADHD gifted kid burnout syndrome on Twitter. I kind of feel like Fractal was sort of my rehab out of that universe and out of that particular failure mode.
Andrew: Give me the long version.
Harrison: I think I was always pretty bright as a kid, but I had a lot of ADHD-related behavioral issues. I just acted out a bunch in class. I did well in my English classes, my humanities classes broadly, but I think around high school I started to fall behind a bit in math just because I missed things when I was a kid. And then once that foundation's shaky, it starts to collapse.
Andrew: Do you have a theory for why you were acting out now?
Harrison: That's something... it's hard to say. I think a lot of it was when I was a really little kid, like in elementary school, I just wasn't engaged. I went to a really crappy public school in a suburb of Detroit from when I was in kindergarten through second grade. I think that gave me a really bad foundation. I just don't think they were very well prepared to deal with me.
It feels kind of arrogant to say I was too smart for it. I don't really think that's the language you should use around kids that are that small, but I think I could have been much more engaged with my classes. I just don't think it was a good environment for me. And I think I had very negative associations with school at a very young age.
I don't remember this, but my mom was telling me that my kindergarten chart had these clothespins on a traffic light where you're in the green, you make a mistake, they put you in the yellow, and you make another mistake, you act out, they put you in the red. And I was in the red every single day. And I was the only kid that was in the red every single day. And that was just my identity - the screw-up kid in the class. And I think that was really, really bad for me.
Andrew: Oh my god.
Harrison: At a pretty young age, I think I probably developed some feelings of emotional unsafety and insecurity, or just not feeling safe in school maybe. And then that kind of just compounded throughout my life, you know?
University and Career Struggles
In university, I majored in CS. In my second year, I dropped out of CS. I kind of had this little existential crisis. I was smoking a lot of weed at the time. I didn't really know how to navigate the professional world. It felt like all my peers had things they wanted to do or were interested in stuff, and I was just kind of coasting.
So I switched into English literature, which I was really, really good at in high school. That was kind of the extent of my logic - I will be better at this and I can figure out what I want to do professionally later. I think English literature was really good for me in a lot of ways. I took all the courses my university offered in literary theory and got a nice high-level overview of a lot of philosophical concepts, psychoanalysis, kind of a broader picture of different ways people have interpreted culture and derived meaning from texts throughout history. I think that was really good for me, just as a person holistically.
I thought about law school at the end of that and I didn't really want to do it. It was like, I need to make money, right? I need to get a job now. I have an English degree. What am I going to do? I thought about the law school thing because it's the direct route, but I realized I didn't want to practice law. I just wanted to make money. And I already had this CS foundation. So I talked to some people at my school, kind of poked around what my options were, and I realized I could do the CS degree and have all my English credits count as electives towards that.
Returning to Computer Science
And that was a really emotionally scary thing to do because I had dropped out of CS at this point. I'm in my early twenties. I think I was 22. And coming back to CS was very, very scary. And it was this real question of "can I do this?" Previously I had accepted "I can't do this. I burned out. I am a screw-up. I am a failure." And just going back... I remember retaking discrete math, which was the first course I flunked out of. And that's when I realized, I don't know if I'm going to get through this degree right now.
Going back into that was really, really scary, and getting over that hurdle and recognizing that it's not that I can't do this, it's that I feel emotionally unsafe doing this, I think was really freaky for me. And I learned a lot of lessons in that. That was a huge step forward for me - coming back to CS, finally passing calculus, finally passing discrete math, realizing that it's not that I was stupid. It's that I had bad foundations, but those foundations are fixable. That was a huge step forward.
Around the time I got back into CS, I got involved in a startup that one of my classmates had founded. I originally was working for them pro bono, just to put it on my resume to look for a job down the line or get an internship or something, just get some CS experience on my resume again, coming off of that humanities degree. That went well. They got their first round of funding. They brought me on as the founding engineer. The company ended up moving to a small city about four hours north of Toronto called Sudbury. They got an investment from a fund connected to the city. And I moved up there.
The Dark Period in Sudbury
And this is where things kind of stalled out for me. This was last summer. I graduated my CS degree. That was a big win, but I wasn't excited about the work I was doing. I really, really disliked living in Sudbury. I wasn't getting paid very much compared to what I would make in the States working in CS. I had some struggles in my personal life. I went through a really difficult breakup. And I kind of realized I can't do this anymore. I need to change something about my life. I cannot do this. This isn't working. I am going to go insane. I feel so depressed. It was a very dark place.
So around last December, I kind of called it quits. I moved back with my parents in Virginia. I was still working remotely for that company in Canada, but I knew I probably wasn't going to keep doing that forever. And I was desperately looking like, what can I do to get out of here?
The Move to New York and Discovery of Fractal
I came up with this idea, kind of arbitrary - I want to move to New York. I visited New York a few times. I think there's the stereotype of moving to New York in your mid-twenties, reinventing yourself. You know, I'm not that unique. So I thought I could do this as a fresh start for me. I didn't know how I was going to do it. I actually pivoted for a while. I was applying for sales positions that were looking kind of promising. Similar to the law thing, I realized I'm only doing this for money. I have no passion for it.
I was really scared to apply for CS positions because I didn't feel like I learned enough at my last company. It was all kind of fresh grads. I didn't have a ton of mentorship and I didn't, honestly didn't work very hard. I was going through a pretty dark period and I wasn't moving forward and I didn't think I had the chops to impress anyone in New York with my technical abilities.
And it was around this time I stumbled into Fractal Bootcamp, which had kind of been on my periphery for a while. And at first I kind of ignored it. I'm like, "Bootcamps are scams. What's even going on here? What do these guys think they're fooling?" I literally just bounced off entirely. And I saw it again a couple of weeks later. And I think I saw one of my mutuals on Twitter had done it and she was saying really good things about it. She had just gotten employed.
Andrew: So true.
Harrison: And then it kind of dawned on me - wait, maybe this actually is an option for me. And I remember that I actually remember the moment rereading and it kind of hitting me: if this works, this would do exactly what I needed to do. Right. And then from there, it's just kind of vetting: does this work?
Vetting Fractal Bootcamp
So I talked to - I reached out to a bunch of people on Twitter who were related to Fractal. I came up and visited and sat in on a day and talked to some people face to face. I started crunching the numbers financially and realized I could swing this. It'd be a little tight, but I wouldn't have any problems if I actually got a job in New York.
People in my life were more supportive of it than I thought they were going to be. I thought I was going to be told I'm crazy and I'm falling for a scam, but broadly it was like, "You're an adult, you can figure this out for yourself." And yeah, I took the leap. I did the program. It went really well. I learned a lot. I want to get into more detail about that, but just broad picture - after seven weeks, I did an internship. They liked me, they made me an offer, and now I'm working in New York City for the foreseeable future. Things have really... it's kind of insane how much my life has changed in the last three months.
The Financial Transformation
Andrew: And how much you're making now.
Harrison: 180. Before this I was making 70 Canadian, which is... it's a pretty big jump. Something along those lines, depends on what the conversion ratio is that day, but yeah, it's like... when I came into Fractal I was thinking if I can make six figures, like if someone would pay me a hundred thousand dollars, that's a lot of money, you know? And then I talked to you and you were kind of like, you valued me higher than that.
Andrew: Pretty good. 3.5x by my calculations.
Harrison: I appreciate you're like, "You should probably look at 140, 160." And then it came out even higher than that, which I'm very, very happy about. It's kind of surreal. I don't know what to do with this much money. It feels like the psychology behind it is I'm in a whole new universe. Have you seen One Piece?
Andrew: No, only a little bit, but I've seen a lot of other shows.
Harrison: It's like the post-time skip - we're in a whole new world now, you know? This is a completely different dimension, right? The bimodal... software salaries are very bimodal and this was a very clear hop from one peak to the other peak, right? I'm on a different career track now.
Beyond the Money: Personal Transformation
Andrew: I'm curious - the money's great and I think is a pretty clear improvement in a lot of people's sense of liberties, just to have enough such that you are living in this other world of abundance and stuff like that. Did you have any other transformations that you feel like came out of Fractal that are as valuable, more valuable, less valuable? I'm just curious what else you feel like the program gave you, other than the job?
Harrison: I think this was another significant step forward for me in terms of rehabilitating my relationship with hard work and my relationship with my own capacity for intellectual work. I talked previously about how when I did the CS degree, that was a big leap of faith for me to go back to this program that I originally flunked out of and take and pass these courses that I really struggled with and wasn't able to complete when I was 18, 19 years old. And I think Fractal kind of did the same thing for me professionally.
My last job, I really struggled to believe in my ability to... like if I put in work, there will be benefits. I wasn't... I was in this really bad loop where I felt like I was an underperformer. And because I felt like I was an underperformer, trying to get out of that felt fruitless in a way. It doesn't matter what I do. People are going to see me as someone who doesn't work hard. Even if I do work hard, I'm only going to keep it up for a week or two. And then I'm going to fall back and be at square one. So why even bother to start? I was in this really bad spiral where I just wasn't able to actually sit down and grind out something long enough to reap rewards for it.
Learning to Work Hard
And there's a thing on Fractal on the website - a quote from Paul Graham talking about once you work really hard, it changes your life entirely because anything you do past that point, you know you have that capacity. Once you've done that once, you always know "I am able to work really hard when I need to." And that just opens up so many doors for you. And I think Fractal kind of put me in a place where I sort of had no choice. That was terrifying the first week. I was freaking out. I thought there's no way I'm going to be able to work 50, 60-hour weeks. I'm going to burn out and die. And then it was fine.
I was in an environment where a bunch of people are all doing the same thing. And I was enjoying what I was doing. And I had this maniacal gripping, just locking in like, "It's all going to be okay. It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. I'm going to put in the work and I'm going to have a reward for it. It's going to work out for me." And once I kind of got past that initial terror and started thinking about what am I feeling? How can I make this easier on myself in the moment?
Things kind of relaxed. I realized actually I have been capable of working hard this entire time. It's just my environment. It's just... I didn't feel emotionally safe. It's just all these little things. It's this set of dozens of tiny micro adjustments I need to make. And not every day is going to be perfect. Not every day is going to be a banger, high output. But if I keep showing up, my average ability to work is going to increase. I'm going to... if I keep working on feeling more emotionally safe around hard work and ambitious projects, I'm going to do better on those in the long run. That will compound over time.
And now starting my job and actually getting paid to work is adding another layer to that. It's stressful again in a new way, but having gone back to the CS degree and then having taken the leap of faith to Fractal, I have more confidence - this is just the next step. I'm going to keep improving from here. My life is going to become more manageable and I'm going to have a more deeply internalized sense of my own competence. And yeah, it gave me a lot of faith that this process of growth is going to continue, if that makes sense.
Andrew: No, this is all very helpful.
Harrison: I think two years ago, I don't think I could have done Fractal. I just don't think I had the emotional baseline to handle that level of hard work. I think I actually would have crashed out. I was talking to Paris a bit about that. If I had moved to New York any earlier than I did, I probably wouldn't have been able to handle it. I think I came at the right time. I don't think I was putting myself in a dangerous or unstable position, but I was really, really grateful for the prerequisite work I did. I was really grateful I went back to therapy and did a bunch of IFS work earlier this year. I think that laid a foundation that you guys kind of picked me up right where I was - okay, well, this is the next hard thing you're going to do. When I was ready to do that, and the process continues from here, you know?
Mental Health Impact
Andrew: I'm curious, you've definitely touched on this in a lot of your answers, but even more explicitly, how did Fractal affect your mental health, or how did this transition overall affect your mental health? And what's that inner phenomenological journey been like?
Harrison: That's a good question. I think a huge part of it that immediately comes to mind is I had less time to fret about my mental health because I was just so busy. That was an initial... what's the saying? Idle hands are the devil's plaything. And I think I'd reached this point where I knew in theory I could do this - I was willing to make a bet on myself. And then Fractal just provided me with very clear next steps.
Anytime I was panicking about "How am I going to improve my life? How am I going to solve these problems? How am I going to get a job? How am I going to enjoy my work? How am I going to whatever..." it was like I could talk to an instructor or I could sit down and look at the curriculum. I could just take a deep breath and look around me at all my other members of my cohort I'm working with and realize the only thing I actually have to worry about is the screen in front of me and the immediate problem I'm facing. And it was this very tight container where that is all I have to worry about all day, every day - just one step at a time. And it will compound, you know?
Pretty quickly, within the first few weeks, I realized I was building things I would not have known how to build before. And that was a huge relief for me to realize I'm able to do this. I have this existence proof that I'm capable of doing these things. And I know what the moment-to-moment experience of that looks like. And that was very reassuring.
The Structure and Safety of Fractal
I think sometimes before this in less structured environments, when I thought about changing my life, I was aware "Okay, I want to make a big change. And to make a big change, I have to make a bunch of tiny changes." And those tiny changes were very distressing. It was very hard to feel safe making them because I didn't know if I was pointing in the right direction. I didn't know if I would keep it up or I didn't know if I was going to get through it. Sort of, if that makes sense.
Andrew: Yeah, makes a lot of sense.
Harrison: Whereas Fractal was more like... it gave me this higher authority sort of... I could trust that if I just keep taking steps, things will get better. They will get better personally. I will feel more confident in myself, mentally and emotionally, because I'll have this existence proof of hard work and its benefits. And frankly, if it blows up in my face, I have someone else I can blame. I think that was actually a non-negligible part of it. If Fractal really didn't work for me, and I didn't get a job and I didn't really learn anything, I could literally just be like, "Screw this guy, dude, what do you mean? I got scammed."
Andrew: Yeah, screw me, right?
Harrison: As opposed to if I do it myself and it blows up, well then I'm the idiot, you know? You're... you get... if you were my scapegoat, you know, that probably helps to some extent.
Andrew: Yeah, I like that whole set of conversations. One thought that came to mind for me from the audience perspective almost is just like, that sounds in some ways too good to be true, or it sounds a little bit like, how is it even possible that I don't have to worry about all the other things in my life? I'm curious if you have an answer to that. Like literally how was it that you stopped fretting? And you kind of answered it, but I still... I'm in disbelief.
Harrison: No, for sure. I think a lot of it was I was in a place in my life where I was sort of prepared to stop fretting as a big part of it. I think that's probably 60, 70% of it is just the fact that I was... I hated living in Sudbury so much and I felt like I had no prospects and I needed to change, you know? I was not going to keep doing what I was doing.
So I really had nothing to lose in that sense. I could really pour myself into this and if it blows up in my face, so what dude? I'm back to living with my parents. I have a pretty strong safety net. I'm not going to be on the streets. I'm not going to starve to death. I'm just going to have to sell my car and then look for a job elsewhere or something, right?
But I think the other side of it, again, I think the scapegoat thing is a huge part of it too. The fact that if this doesn't work, it's not as load-bearing on my ego because I'm following someone else's plan for a little bit, right? That's a huge part of not having to fret as much.
Andrew: You basically believe Fractal provided you with a plan that said like almost like a nutritionist or something. It's like, hey, if you do this, you will achieve the outcome. The outcome is a guaranteed outcome given the results or given the inputs.
Harrison: Yeah, basically. You once described this program to me as almost like rehab. And I think about that a lot. That really clicked in my head. It was kind of like a rehab program. If you go to a rehab center and you follow the program and you follow their rules, you're not going to drink. You're not going to relapse by the nature of the rules. If you do this, your life is going to get better. If you're at rock bottom and you're addicted and you have nothing going for you and you go to rehab and you legitimately put your all into it, your life will get better deterministically, you know? And this was kind of like a rehab sort of environment in that way.
Andrew: Right. Similarly, I compare it to like a military bootcamp as well, where it's like, look, if you follow the program, you're going to get strong. That's just what happens. You're going to be able to run more. You're going to be able to climb mountains. You're going to be able to carry heavy weights. You're going to be able to stay up and wake up in the middle of the night and go on hikes. That's just what will happen.
Harrison: Yeah, 100%. I think I put just... I put my faith in the deterministic program. There's not much else to say other than that. I think the fact that I spoke to people who had had similar outcomes really helped. And frankly, for my case specifically, I came in with some prior engineering experience. I recognized pretty quickly I'm sort of in the upper band of this cohort. Everyone's working really hard, I'm really happy with everyone, and I think they're all going to do really well. But I was able to graduate early, and I was able to get a higher offer than someone coming in with zero experience might be able to.
Knowing that this program has worked for people with substantially less experience than me, so there's really no reason it wouldn't work for me, was also pretty reassuring.
Why Fractal Works Better for Experienced Engineers
Andrew: That's actually a good thing to double click on. I think a lot of people think bootcamps are for beginners, but you kind of just implied that the bootcamp was actually better for you because you had experience. Why? What happened there?
Harrison: I think the bootcamp kind of had... I know how to program. I know how to build products. I didn't know how to... a lot of it was the emotional unsafety, lack of safety.
And I think coming in with experience means that the set of problems I had to solve was smaller. I didn't have to learn how to do a LeetCode easy. I didn't have to learn how to do hello world. I didn't have to learn what a web server is in theory. What I did have to do is learn how to write unit tests for the first time in my life. What I did have to do is learn how to use TypeScript. What I did have to do is learn how to use Next.js. I did have to get over the emotions around working hard and taking a risk on myself. I did have to deal with the stress of looking for a job and like dealing with all that.
But again, this is a subset. Everyone who comes with zero experience still has to do all those things.
Andrew: Did you ever feel like you were being held back by a curriculum that was going too slow?
Harrison: Absolutely not. No way. I think there's always going to be improvements to the curriculum, but I didn't feel like that was my problem. I felt like at any point in time I could sit down with the instructor and be like, "This isn't working for me. I want to do this instead." And it was universally like, "Yeah, I think that's probably true for XYZ. You might want to consider ABC," but I always felt like my best interests were at the heart of it.
Circling back though about having more experience is still benefiting from bootcamp - I think these problems are still really, really hard to solve. And just because you have some of them solved, just because you know the basics of programming, doesn't mean you know how to ace a job interview. And just because you know how to write backend Python doesn't mean you know how to do full-stack TypeScript. And if you can solve any of these problems with bootcamp...
All of these things... answering any of these things is so valuable. Going from someone who can't interview at all to someone who can interview flawlessly can increase your lifetime earnings by millions of dollars. And if that's all you get out of bootcamp, then it instantly pays for itself, you know?
It's hard to break down exactly what I knew, exactly what I didn't know, but holistically, just being able to focus on polishing out the things I needed to polish up at bootcamp was still totally worth the value for me. And I think if I was trying to cover everything, I would almost feel like I'm getting less value out of it because I couldn't go as deep on everything, if that makes sense.
I don't know what the experience is with someone coming to bootcamp with no experience, but for me, a junior who couldn't quite make that jump to senior, who had no ties to the New York tech market and didn't know how to get in there, who felt some emotional stuff he still had to work through with respect to working hard and finding a job in the city and whatnot - total no-brainer. Very, very good for me.
Why Fractal is a Finishing School for Engineers
Andrew: I just like that point in particular because we designed the program for engineers, for people who already had coding experience. We can help people who've never coded before by giving them a pre-course and making sure they're prepped and stuff like that. But we really designed the program to be something where they're like, it's a finishing school for engineers. It exists to make sure that you're not leaving any of your potential on the table.
Harrison: Yeah.
Andrew: And if you're leaving your potential on the table, you're leaving money on the table, you're leaving career options on the table, you're leaving your ability to found companies on the table. You're leaving good relationships, good working relationships for the rest of your life. There's all these things that will set you free if you can master them. Mastery sets people free in general. And so especially the parts that you don't want to master, we are going to narrow in on those things, you know? You're not going to be able to hide from us and we're going to be like, "Hey, I noticed that actually, you seem really bad at this particular thing that you keep avoiding doing. Can you go ahead and do that for four days straight and then show me how much better you are?"
Harrison: Yeah, 100% dude, 100%. And also there's also just so much value in having someone over your shoulder. Just frankly, if I did this in my bedroom at home, I would scroll Twitter. I would not lock in. I would not do that. The social aspect of it, the fact like the guy next to me is working, I should be working too, really contributes a lot to that. There's always going to be value just in having someone who holds you accountable. Having a real person who cares about your well-being and knows more than you in this domain is holding you accountable.
Who Should Do Fractal Tech
Andrew: In your opinion, who should do the program? Who should sign up for Fractal Tech? If somebody was listening to you talk right now, how would they know for sure Fractal Tech is going to change their life in the way that it changed yours?
Harrison: If you have been programming for a few years or you have a few hundred hours of experience programming, but don't know how to turn that into a career. If you can solve LeetCode medium, but can't imagine how you'd spin up a website from scratch with functional functionality people actually need to use, do auth, handle a database, handle the full stack from end to end.
That seems like the ideal candidate for me. There are a lot of people I've known who know how to program, but are not engineers. There are even people I know who have been paid to program, but would not really identify as engineers or be able to function as engineers independently. And I think that that's kind of the ideal candidate. I think I was a little bit ahead of where that person might be at, but not radically far ahead. And I think that that's kind of the ideal.
Like you said, it's a finishing school for engineers. There are a lot of programs out there, a lot of online courses that take you through learning to program, but don't make you an engineer. I think basically every CS degree program in the country teaches you to program, but doesn't make you an engineer. And I think that seems like the ideal to me.
I also think a lot of what we're seeing right now with CS grads saying they can't get hired is because of this. People come out and they know how to do CS, but they don't know what it's like to be an engineer. They don't know how to be a software engineer and they don't even seem to understand or have the language to recognize those are two different things. Would you agree with that?
Andrew: I totally agree. I totally agree. I mean, the finishing school analogy is just... it's the people I can help the most. There are people out there like you, I've talked to a lot of them, who either can't find jobs even though they are 3.7 GPA CS students or math students or whatever, or who are making 50K, 60K and should be making 180 literally in the city. And they should be making more than that. 180, that's your first-year salary, but really give it three months in my program and then another year in industry and then you should be making 250, 260. For a lot of people who are capable of working hard and have that sort of drive and are smart, the market for engineering is literally... it's unlimited. There's a huge amount of business operations that need to be automated. So you just...
Harrison: There's so many founding engineer positions in the world.
Andrew: I know, I know they're everywhere.
Learning to Love Hard Work
Harrison: I think the other side of it is I wrote an essay early in the bootcamp about learning to love hard work and learning to feel emotionally safe doing hard work. And there's something... I kind of want to touch on some of those ideas. Because the other side of it is there's a lot of people who want to work hard, who are just tortured by the relationship with work. And this was me for a very, very long time.
I had this hypothetical Protestant work ethic in my head. I wanted to work hard, but I didn't have... there were just some emotional tools missing. There were some blockers, there were some things in the way. There was no existence proof. There was no belief in myself. A couple of these plans - if I can just put 200, 300, 400 hours into this, my whole life is going to change, everything's going to be better. And then I get the first dozen or two dozen hours in, and then just kind of fall apart because I was afraid or because it didn't feel safe or because I didn't believe in my ability to see it through. And if I'm not going to see it through, I'll be back at square one anyway, so let's just go back to square one now and smoke weed and scroll Twitter again, you know? And I did this for a very, very long time.
And I think that this bootcamp... I'm talking about things that are very subtle and very internal. And I think it's hard for people to recognize exactly where they're at. I don't know who this is going to resonate with, but I'm willing to put it out there. If what I'm talking about resonates with you, you would probably benefit from this bootcamp. You'd probably benefit from being in a spot with emotionally mature people who care about you and want to see you succeed really, really badly because it's mutually beneficial for them and for you. Just standing over your shoulder and walking you through this stuff and putting you in an environment with a bunch of other people who are also in a stage of life where they're willing to pay a deposit and take a big risk and do a program like this.
I think that if you want it, if you want to work hard but you don't know how, this bootcamp or something similar to it is an unbelievably valuable experience. I think you get the same thing by doing a military bootcamp or by throwing yourself into a job where failure isn't an option. But beyond just people looking to break into CS, I think there's that personal development side of it that I really benefited from. My life's not perfect. I still have things I'm going to be working through, but this was a substantial step forward in my ability to believe in myself in a very holistic, broad sense of what that means.
Andrew: Even "work hard" is close to misnomer-y. It's like work a lot, or work intensely, or work with focus and passion or something, you know? Work with drive. There's like, you can get into these states where you're like, it's not even hard this week. It's just a lot.
Harrison: Yeah
